Slap! You didn't "vote socialist" – counter-productive

----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Sanders <jimsanders954@yahoo.com
To: sp-members@lists.riseup.net ; chegitz guevara <absynthe@gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 7:32 AM

There is no particular advantage in voting for the SWP or for the PSL to the working class and the socialist movement as a whole.

The only reason for the Socialist Party to run candidates is to educate people about socialism. We have had modest success with that. I think that much of that benefit has been negated by socialist partisans to taking shots at party members for not following some – as far as I know, though it could have been decided by some "representatives" at some time – unstated party line.

On 5/9/09, David McReynolds <dmcreynolds@nyc.rr.com wrote:
I agree with Jim. Why Marc is happy with the PSL (which defended the Chinese actions at Tianamin Square, and supported the worst elements in the Soviet Union, including the coup that forced Gorbachev out) or the SWP, I don't know. The Greens are imperfect but they are democratic.

Fraternally,
David

-----Original Message-----
From: chegitz guevara <absynthe@gmail.com
Sent: May 10, 2009 7:45 AM
To: sp-members@lists.riseup.net, David McReynolds <dmcreynolds@nyc.rr.com

How did I know that David would decide to attack PSL? You know what the difference between PSL, the SWP, and the Green Party is, David? The Green Party doesn't support socialism. Whatever problems our comrades in PSL and the SWP may have, they are on the side of the workers. Leaving aside the fact that, using David's logic, he is happy with McKinney (at whack job who claims that 5,000 prisoners were secretly executed after Katrina as well as who hangs out with anti-Semites), the Green Party doesn't oppose capitalism.

In fact, Jim's point about voting the SWP or the PSL not helping the working class or the socialist movement is doubly true for the Greens. There is no political benefit in voting Green, except when socialists are runing openly socialist campaigns on the GP ticket.

Is it true that not voting for other socialist groups doesn't help the socialist movement? I tend to disagree. At the very least, it can help build much needed solidarity among socialist groups. Right now, one of our most important tasks is building solidarity among socialists. We don't have the luxury of acting in a sectarian manner towards other socialists. We simply do not have the critical mass of activists in our own party to go it alone, even if we were sectarian enough to think that we should. We need them. They need us.

your comrade,
chegitz guevara
Bolshveik Beach Party!

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rockwood" <anti.fascist.soldier@igc.org
To: <sp-members@lists.riseup.net; "chegitz guevara" <absynthe@gmail.com; <sp-members@lists.riseup.net; "David McReynolds" <dmcreynolds@nyc.rr.com
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 1:46 PM

Right now, one of our most important tasks is building solidarity among socialists. We don't have the luxury of acting in a sectarian manner towards other socialists. We simply do not have the critical mass of activists in our own party to go it alone, even if we were sectarian enough to think that we should. We need them. They need us.<

If could apply that internally to the party as well, lets chisel it into granite!  I was in the Greens because an ex-SWPer used (and in the process created) the Green Party to speak “socialist” to the unconverted.  I was also at the creation of the Greens in Germany in the late 70s and early 80s when they blocked my base, gave the blockaded American military personnel apple juice and serenaded us with music.

But when (Green Party candidate) Rev. Billy announced at the Left Forum that “You cannot organize around socialism,” he was talking not just for himself, that was the motto of those Greens in 2004 who stabbed Peter Camejo (and the nearly 7000 who voted for me in my congressional campaign) in the back, a man who organized more Green votes by a factor of ten than they could ever dream of organizing themselves.  I will never forget that.  When the Greens are willing again to be in an "OPEN" coalition with "OPEN" socialists I'll dial you back.

If the next FDR wants to steal our 2004 platform like they did our 1904 platform, that is fine with me.  Socialists have always been co-opted and have been co-opters, that is not a bad thing, as long it is in the open and not by a self-appointed clique or vanguard in a back room who think they are more enlightened than the rank and file members of whatever party or coalition they belong to.

These insiders are neither Right of Left, they are Right and Left.  Also, when the PSL, WWP, or SWP are willing to be in an open electoral alliance with the SPUSA in which our candidates could run against each other in a primary election, I'll also call Marc/Che back.

When socialists are allowed to be openly socialist as "they themselves" define the term, I will dial anyone back.

All hail Emma and company.
Capt Rock

David McReynolds concludes with:

My problem with Marc, and the reason I hope his viewpoint remains a minority in the SP, is that he has not begun to do the kind of critical thinking that has taken place in  much of the rest of the socialist movement, but is involved in a romance with the more totalitarian elements around the Maoist and Trotskyist movements.

You cannot - you simply cannot - treat as close comrades those who would, if they could, put you in prison. Remember that during World War II - not so long ago to me, a vast time ago for Marc - the Communist Party called on the government to put Norman Thomas in jail, and cheered on the arrest and jailing of the Trotskyists. (As the Trotskyists had and still do support Kronstadt).

Since that time the Communist Party has done some serious rethinking. And the Trotskyist movement is dead - twitching with little bits and pieces of irrelevent sects.

In 1968 - and this applies to Larry's point - when I ran for Congress here in New York, I debated Peter Camejo (brilliant debater) over the question of whether the SWP, which did not have a candidate in the 19th CD, would support me. Of course they would not. They were a vanguard party. Though they have passed from the scene, that vanguard problem remains with WWP, PSL, Socialist Action, etc.

Larry, in 2004 I was indeed able to be an open socialist when running for the Senate. I never said or pretended to be a member of the Greens. However I came under attack by the quasi-Trotskyist wing of the SP because it wasn't enough to run against the Iraq war, I had to run with the full socialist platform, when the fact was the Iraq war was the issue that had to be addressed.

This business of running as an open socialist can be a bit of a downer. If you run for Mayor of - let's say - Milwaukee, everyone knew that Frank Zeidler was a socialist. But the Mayor of a modest sized city cannot change foreign policy. He or she cannot socialize the means of production. They can only do what the Communist Party in Italy did - give good government, make sure people are treated humanely, collect the garbage, hold the police accountable.

People do not live on slogans, they live on daily reality. You build from the bottom up.

I'll leave the slogans to Marc. I am willing to dialogue with anyone - and have met and dialogued quietly and seriously with the Communist Party, the Revolutionary Communist Party, etc. And I am not looking to pick fights with the parts of the left I have problems with - but I want to build a genuinely democratic movement.

Fraternally,
David McReynolds