Mark Lause Attacks Michael C. Marino!
Rides to the Defense of Melvin Little
Text by Walshingham
Text by Marino
Text by Mark Lause
The Article That Drove Mark Lause Bonkers
--- walshingham2000 wrote:
> --- In Redbadbear@yahoogroups.com, "Michael C. Marino" wrote:
>> ...and accepting that they are part of the problem means that the Democrats need to start planning on being part of the solution.
> Indeed we (Democrats) must, and as you suggested I did not include such a statement...as you rightly point out its obvious.
>
> However, what did pique my interest was your evident support (?) for the Browns bid for the presidency.... You should not be wasting your time and effort on such marginal candidates. They may be charming and committed individuals, but they are not going to be elected, and all you will succeed in doing is splitting the left/socialist/democrat vote...
Cde. Walt Brown is a long-time personal friend of mine. You should take into account that there are alliances older and deeper than expediency.
> What we (Democrats) do not want is a repeat of the last Gore/Bush debacle. You should be supporting Kerry and the democrats, with the sole aim of defeating Bush and his extremist reactionaries, and not distracting the socialist/democrat electorate by attempting to lead them down a blind political alley..
What we (democratic socialists) are not going to be doing in 2004 is be led down a blind alley, or a blind ally, for that matter. The voters in the Socialist Party USA are very much aware of what is at stake and what they want to do; if I tried to lead them down a blind alley, they would not follow, because they can see (there ARE exceptions -- I prefer to leave the gormless fellows unnamed, of course). There are socialists who will vote for Kerry, socialists who will vote for Brown, some might vote for Cobb, Nader, or Mickey Mouse.
Socialists tend to be quite unreasonable; but, as George Bernard Shaw would say (as close as I can get it from memory): "The rational person adapts to his or her environment. The irrational person tries to force his or her environment to change to something s/he finds more suitable. Thus, all social progress depends upon the efforts of irrational people."
> walshingham
Best to your side, stick to your guns, and please pardon those of us who stick to ours. :)
Solidarity forever,
Michael C. Marino
http://www.thesocialistparty.org/spo/
The Lause Attack
Sometime back, I was horrified at how Chairman Michael C. Marino of the Oregon Socialist Party was content to exchange apolitical slanders of Nader back and forth on the Redbear list with the resident apologists for the Kerry campaign. In one such exchange, Brother Marino intimated that support of the SP's Brown-Herbert ticket was preferable to supporting Nader because Nader wasn't a socialist and because Nader, unlike Brown, would get so many votes that his campaign might hurt the election of a Democrat.
In response to a direct question as to why he is not supporting Kerry, Comrade Marino now writes that he is supporting Brown because he is "a long-time personal friend of mine." He adds, "There are socialists who will vote for Kerry, socialists who will vote for Brown, some might vote for Cobb, Nader, or Mickey Mouse."
I would suggest, in the most comradely fashion, that this is precisely the sort of thinking that has made the Socialist Party in the U.S. what it is today.
Solidarity!
Mark L.
Marino's Response
Cde, Lause:
Other than providing comedic relief, Mark, your message is pretty silly.
Votes thrown to Ralph would be votes thrown away from ALL of the genuine and legit candidates, not just Kerry. You should take a look at the 2004 race; there are several people from several different political parties running.
The Socialist Party listservs, such as the Members-Only list, allow slanders against Walt Brown to be posted, so I doubt that there will be much reaction to the possibility that I may have offended poor you with my comments about Ralph. The sad facts are that Ralph is not only NOT a socialist, but a dedicated friend of the capitalist system -- but wants some consumer protections thrown in. Ralph's vision for the future still has a rich and a poor not just as a side-effect, but as a goal. The fundamentals of the system, Ralph is not concerned with changing, so there is no reason why anyone concerned with social change would support him. But, of course, you know all this.
One of the things which you do not understand about the SPUSA is that it is a democratic socialist party, [not] a democratic centralist one; we cannot force our members to vote for our candidates. Many have indicated that they will not -- some (possibly many) Comrades in California and Michigan, for example, have been opposed to the Socialist Party ticket. In any event, even if we were a democratic-centralist party and even if we did have rules in effect that our members had to vote the way in which they were ordered, we would have no way to enforce it since voting in this country is done by secret ballot.
If you want to see Kerry elected, Mark, vote for Kerry. But I would ask that you take the time to look at the issues and consider the candidates involved -- such as the Brown-Herbert ticket. If you prefer to be close-minded, then your opinion is of no concern to me; I request that a member of marxmail convey this reply so that Mark Lause's slander against me is not let to go by without the offered reply to correct where he has gone wrong.
I see your point on one subject, however: instead of writing, ". . .Cobb, Nader, or Mickey Mouse", I should have written, ". . .Cobb, Mickey Mouse, or Nader." I meant no disrespect to Mickey.
With Brotherly and Sisterly Love,
Michael C. Marino
Marino: On Mark Lause's Veracity
I think that claiming that I am a Kerry supporter is pretty stupid, but, some people do what they gottah do to try to drag other people down.
Mark Lause recently posted a personal attack on me, alleging that I posted a personal attack on Ralph. I have, for years, been opposed to Ralph's foray into politics for a number of reasons (one reason is that he isn't any good at it). "Personal attacks" regarding public figures are quite commonplace. There are a great many of them posted about George W. Bush (some of which are actual quotes, but, still, repeating them has got to be an embarrassment to the guy). Lause has never complained about personal attacks against Bush before, so the topic of personal attacks against public figures is a red herring.
If Lause cared about *personal slanders" against public figures, he would object to them being made at all; he does not. His real problem has something to do with thinking that Ralph is his friend and trying to raise the hue and cry of "slander!" as a way of quelling legitimate disagreement.
Nice try, Mark.
Mark Lause also blames me for pointing out that socialists will vote for Brown, Kerry, Cobb, Bugs Bunny, Nader, etc. -- although many people have pointed this out and I have no control over how people vote. If I could force people to vote a certain way, then that pretty much renders voting pointless, doesn't it?
Strike two, Mark.
Mark Lause claims that I am a supporter of Kerry. I find this rather odd, since I am the Campaign Manager for one of Kerry's opponents where I put in many hours a day on his campaign, and have neither done any volunteer work for, nor donated any money to, the campaign of Mr. John Kerry.
Strike three, and Mark's outtathere.
Now, the reason for Mark's recent attacks really does perplex me; so let me explain things in a Comradely and cordial manner:
"MARK! LISSEN, SKINHEAD, I'M NOT VOTING FOR BUSH OR RALPH! Get USED to it! You can preach and moan John Kerry for weeks at a time, you can run your mouth about trying to get me to re-register Democrat, and you can demand democratic centralism until you turn blue and pass out, but you can't force me to vote the way you want me to vote! Grow the Hell up!"
This has been a diplomatic effort to try to smoothe the waters over and show that Mark Lause is a gutless, lying, Bush-lovin', socialist-bashin', no-ethics-havin', dirtbag loser. And I say that in the most comradely and warm-hearted way possible.
[Mark] Lause: watch his veracity.
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Long live the Fist and Rose,
Michael C. Marino
The Parting Shot by Lause
This is why I get in long discussions on this list. Readers only remember the last thing they read in an exchange. It's the easiest thing in the world for me to misrepresent someone's statements, goals and purposes and then attack a position they've not taken. If you want, you can make it impossible to agree that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. This is why email discussions only work among people who want to make them work.
Anyway, I've not seen any evidence in long months that you have the least interest in really discussing anything serious.
ML
Marino Looks Up 'Proclivity'
Proclivity
(n.) Inclination; propensity; proneness; tendency.
(n.) Readiness; facility; aptitude.
-from "brainydictionary"
This was a term used recently to accuse Yours Truly of having "proclivities" for or with the Democratic Party.
My inclination is to be in the Socialist Party. My propensity is to remain in the Socialist Party. My proneness is to hang out with other people in the Socialist Party. My tendency is to get elected or appointed to various jobs in the Socialist Party.
My readiness is to continue to work for the Socialist Party. My facility is to understand the workings and theories in the Socialist Party (for example: Marxism -- the science of proving a point is true or false by writing more words than anybody will ever bother to read, let alone dispute). My aptitude is in the work I do for the Socialist Party.
Now, if only people would check a dictionary before writing, these sorts of clarifications would be unnecessary.
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Long live the Fist and Rose,
Michael C. Marino
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